Religious Question

[firebyrd]

I'm hoping I can get some insight from my friends of different beliefs. For some background, in my faith, we believe that everyone needs to be baptized in order to reach the highest levels of heaven. But there's a little problem-most people in the history of the world haven't had a chance to be baptized. Rather than automatically excluding them, we believe that they can learn of our beliefs after they die and choose to accept them at that point. However, they still need to be baptized, and that's something that needs to happen with a physical body. So we do proxy baptisms using names of dead people so that they're covered if they do choose to accept our beliefs, since we have no way of knowing who has and hasn't chosen to accept our beliefs. This does nothing under our beliefs unless they do make that choice. They don't become Mormon. They don't get put on our list of members. They just get put in a database saying it's been done so people don't do it over and over for the same people. And if we really are the nutjobs people think we are and everything we believe is wrong, obviously it does nothing in that case either.

Some people are apparently very, very offended by this. I've always had a very hard time understanding why. Obviously, if they're offended, they don't think our beliefs are correct, so why would they think it does anything? Some people have even recently made a website listing names of dead church leaders and declaring that they are now gay, apparently to try to make us see how offensive we are. I still don't get it. I'm not offended by that website, because I don't believe the people maintaining it have the power to make Joseph Smith and Brigham Young gay. So do these people really think we have the power to make dead people, who might not even exist anymore in any form, Mormon? If not, what's there to be offended about?

I'm genuinely trying to understand the problem here, because every time this becomes a controversy, I'm very confused. Now, I absolutely think the Church should follow the agreements it has made (and my understanding is they've revoked the privileges of doing proxy work for the guy responsible for the latest group of Holocaust victims who had work done). I just don't get why anyone cares at all. It seems to me if we're right, it means people have a chance to progress farther in the next life, and if we're wrong, then we've wasted our time with a meaningless prayer. What am I missing here?

Comments

[fealubryne.livejournal.com]

Frankly, people need to get over themselves. If someone wants to perform a proxy baptism, let them. If someone wants to pray for a friend or a neighbor, let them. If someone wants to do a little ritual to bless someone else, let them. Why is any of this offensive? It's not. It's not their business. It's someone else following their own beliefs, and if that bothers you, just ignore it. It affects you in no way whatsoever. If nothing else, it's a kind gesture on the part of whoever is doing whatever it is that they're doing - they obviously care enough to be doing something they view as beneficial. It's not malicious, it's quite the opposite. So why on earth is that a bad thing?

People get way too uppity over religious stuff. It's like a conversation I had with a friend just last night, about how they want to change the dating system so it doesn't refer to religious figures. Which is completed idiotic, since the dates are still based off said religious figure, but the terminology is different. But, y'know, heaven forbid we refer to Christ! It's so offense! Dude. It's how it's been done for hundreds of years. Get the fuck over it. Same goes for stuff like Christmas trees and all that. Yes, I see where you're coming. Suddenly deciding that oh noes, it's so offensive, blah blah blah... whatever. Call it what you want, but don't get all offended by me calling it what I want either. I'm not forcing anything on you, I'm calling it what I was raised to call it, because people have been doing it for years and years and years. It has absolutely nothing to do with you.

Or at least, that's my opinion on the matter.

Now, to be completely objective about it, I might understand someone having concerns if they were part of a religion that was super strict about... like, I dunno, conflicting stuff done. I can't even go into detail on that, because I can't think of anything off the top of my head (and I'm admittedly doing a really quick reply since I shouldn't be replying at all, I should be doing schoolwork...) but there is that. Although even that leaves me a bit skeptical, because, as you said, it's not like you're forcing anything on anyone. You don't ninja turn anybody Mormon, or Christian, or Buddhist, or whatever, without their knowledge and consent. Or at least, most "common" religions don't work like that. In the situation of one that... I don't know, is very superficial? or something like that, maybe you can theoretically be that religion just because JimmyBob says you are. But again, I'm not familiar with anything of the sort so the idea seems rather bizarre to me. That might be a legit reason to have concern about other people "tampering" with your beliefs.

On a whole, though, it seems like whatever anybody does in their own personal time as far as religions go is their business and only their business. It's one thing if someone is on their deathbed and specifically states that they don't want anybody praying over them. Yes, that's a respect thing. If someone else decides to pray, or whatever, for someone in the privacy of their own home or religious building or whatnot, who cares? As I said before, if nothing else it's a nice gesture, even if the recipient doesn't agree with it.

Long and ranty and probably not very coherent, I apologize.

[thistle-chaser.livejournal.com]

I don't really like the idea, but as you said, I know (or think!) it does nothing, so what's the harm? It's like when people say they'll pray for me, it makes me frown in my head, but I don't verbally attack them for it, since what's it going to do? If they want to waste their time... it's their time to waste.

There's always the chance I'm wrong, too. In which case: Thanks! Not just to you folks, but to any group that cared and tried.

Live and let live. So long as it's something like proxy baptisms that I don't even have to know about, I don't care. Someone gets in my face and tells me I'm going to hell because of X reasons? Totally different. I can't really see why anyone would be offended by the baptism thing.

[evilgrayson.livejournal.com]

I might be able to shed a little light on this one; the answer is 'boundaries'.

The best way to answer it, though, is by asking 'Would you like it if someone decided to convert you to Shi'ite Islam without your permission?'

[seyrah.livejournal.com]

Okay, so I'll try to be as respectful as possible while still addressing your question. I can only speak for myself, as an agnostic. To clarify my beliefs, I do not know if there's an afterlife, or a God, etc. I'm willing to entertain theories, but that doesn't mean I accept any given one. I haven't found one that I totally agree with yet.

You're right that I think it doesn't do anything when you baptise a dead person. Similarly, you could stuff communal wafers into my kid's mouth all day and I wouldn't feel she's eaten the body of Christ, but I still don't want her being stuffed with wafers; and you could baptize everyone on earth and it wouldn't change a thing about our immortal destinies, or whatever. I don't object to my Dad praying for me, which he often says he's doing. I wouldn't object to people in your church praying for me. I would not like them to baptise me, however, alive or dead.

This may seem identical to you--prayer and baptism--but it's not. The concept of baptism feels different to those outside your faith because to most religions, baptism is a sacrament that is willingly undergone, and that changes them. You feel it changes them, too, or you wouldn't be doing it. So, it's offensive not because the baptised person would have felt that it had power over them, but rather that you think it has power over them and you're doing it without their consent, which in many cases they would not give. I don't want to be on a list of Mormons even if that list has no power to actually make me a Mormon. I similarly don't want to be on a list of, say, people who voted for Obama, or people who support the NRA, or people who bought Justin Beiber's album, even if I know the list is wrong. I'd politely ask to be removed. If I'm dead, I can't even politely ask.

If you have a chance to spread the good news to people during their lifetime, and they accept it, fine. But for the rest of us, assume we've heard the pitch, don't like it, and leave us and our immortal souls alone, please.